Sky News interview with Beth Rigby: Iran, Trump and Mandelson

Thank you for having me on my first time.

Well, you're absolutely right. This is a meeting of Northern European countries. It's a military alliance that was set up in 2014 and we work together on the threats particularly um in the north of Europe in the Baltics, Nordics, and the high what we call the high north, where we've got interests um, as a country. Obviously, the focus for the last few years has been on Russia and the threat from Russia and what we can do. And we've done a lot together, training together, we've done operations together.

But what we were talking about today and what I've announced is that we need to do more on the shadow what we call the shadow fleet. The these are basically um, vessels that are carrying Russian oil in breach of sanctions um, out uh, or to market. Um, and we are I've announced today that um, from now on I've given permission to the UK to intercept these um, vessels um, and to uh, do our part to enforce uh, the sanctions that are in place. Now, that is designed to put further pressure on Putin because uh, the Ukraine war is now four and a bit years in. Obviously, the Ukrainians have paid a very heavy price for the aggression.

But we've also been impacted back in the United Kingdom. Our energy bills have gone up. Um, there's um, sort of hybrid threats from Russia. There are constant examples of them um, trying to do damage to undersea cables and it's in our interest that we uh, rise to that challenge. And so, this this meeting takes place once a year, but these are countries that we train with, we work with um, but particularly in relation to Russia.

Well, you're absolutely right. We're facing a war on two fronts. We've got uh the Russian invasion of Ukraine going on for, as I say, 4 years now, and then we've got the Iran conflict. Um both of them very serious. Both of them with huge implications.

Um and how they end and on what terms uh could well define us for a generation. So, um both of them um have those sorts of consequences. And that's why it's really important that we approach this um with our values and principles. That's what we've applied in Ukraine, and that's what we've applied in uh Iran, and certainly um we're working with others to de-escalate the situation in Iran.

And just in the last few days, we've been putting together a sort of coalition, if you like, of countries that are willing to work on how we reopen the Straits of Hormuz, which obviously is hugely important for our economy.

Well, the consequences in terms of our economy um are already there and to be seen. It depends how long it um lasts. But, if you take the Russian invasion of Ukraine, if that ends on terms advantageous to Russia, uh that will um cause them to think that they can do more of the same in the future. That's a threat across Europe. Um and if the Iran conflict ends with greater economic harm, then that is going to be impactful.

It is already impactful uh on economies across the world. And that is why we need to see this in those terms. Uh they're both serious. They both have serious consequences. And how they end um matters to the United Kingdom.

Well, I think, um, you know, there are various times when the sort of major uh principles that we apply and have been tested. I'm not sure there's been any time quite like this. But, um, you know, I think for most of our lives, I think in my life, uh I remember profoundly the Berlin Wall coming down. Um and I remember that feeling, um, that there was going to be peace and freedom and that the values that I held dear were the values that were going to sort of uh be the, you know, the dominant values, if you like, in the world. And that I didn't think, I have to say, that I would ever see Russian tanks going across a European border again in my lifetime.

I didn't think I would see that, and yet we saw that 4 years ago. In the Middle East, um, Iran is a threat to all of its neighbors, a threat to the world, um, and therefore how this ends will determine what that threat is as we go forward. So, this is a defining period. It's a testing period for the whole world.

Absolutely. And, um, you know, every leader has to rise to whatever the challenges are at the time. What I've done here is to be absolutely clear that I'm the British Prime Minister and I have to act in the British national interest. Um and that's really important and that's why when it came to the Iran war, I've said we're not going to get dragged in because my judgment is that's not in the interests of our country.

Very strong opinion. I looked back at the example of the Iraq invasion invasion and learned the lessons. It is not in our interest to join a war like this and I'm not going to do so. Undoubtedly pressure is being put on me by many quarters. Whether that was political leaders in this country before they actually changed their mind pretty soon afterwards.

Some of the media in this country and others. But I've got to stay focused on what's in the British national interest. It's not in our interest to get dragged in. And it's very important to me that for any UK action there's got to be a lawful basis. There's got to be a clear viable plan.

But if that isn't the case, we won't get drawn in. On the other hand of course when Iran responded and there was then a threat to British citizens, British nationals in the Gulf region and to our allies in the Gulf region. I agreed to action in our collective self-defense. So that's the divide I've been very clear about. No to getting dragged into the war.

Yes to collective self-defense of ourselves and our allies.

Look, that's not for me to say uh in the sense of um whether it's the right time for a novice or not. I'll be judged by what I do. Um I'll be judged at the next election by what I've done for our country. But, um I have to say I'm totally focused on what is in our best interest, and I don't want to get distracted by um everything else that is um out there that's being said um or is being put to me. But, I think the point you make about 08 is really important because how we respond to this this war on two fronts is hugely important.

In 08, I feel that Gordon Brown reacted very well. Um he helped mitigate the damage around the world. But, then after the election in 2010, uh two things happened. Um the coalition government as it then was went for austerity, um which destroyed our public services, and we're living with the consequences. But, nothing materially changed.

Again, with COVID, which was um obviously a great shock to the system, afterwards did anything materially change? It has to be different this time as we come out of this. Um the response is going to matter, and we have to change the way the country is set up. We have to change the way What I mean is that for um for most people in the country, their living standards haven't gone up since 2008. That is 18 long years, and therefore they're fed up.

The cost of living is still the number one issue for um people and families across the country. We can't come out of this and say it's business as usual, or it's back to the status quo. We have to be prepared to say um we need to um absolutely go further when it comes to our defense, to our security, to our economy and how it works for people and the whole way that the country is set up. We have to turn this into an opportunity to change our country for the better.

Well, of course there's a frustration there. I at the spring statement, which was only a few weeks ago, we were able to show that inflation was down to 3% and predicted to go down further. Interest rates have been cut six times and prediction was they'd go down again. We've built up a good headroom so there was the stability. And you know, these aren't just statistics.

What that meant is that for families across the country, here's the economy at last stabilized, the conditions on which we can then build. And so now a few weeks later, of course there's a frustration that that maybe you know, much harder now. Well, I'll say two things about that. Firstly, um it is really important to acknowledge that we go into this conflict in a stronger place than we went into the Ukraine conflict in 2022. Two, that the extent of damage, the extent of the challenge we now face, will depend on how long this war goes on.

And that's why we've got to de-escalate. But am I frustrated that having spent 18 months getting the economy stabilized and in a better position

Well, of course, but we had to take difficult and hard decisions. But the right

Well, what the Spring Statement showed, with the inflation as I say in the right place and all the rest of it, is that the plan that we had in place was the right plan, notwithstanding the criticism that everybody put on it. But now the question is, look, there are these challenges. These are global conflicts. And there's no point me sort of complaining about it. That's the world we live in.

You've got to face the world as it is. I have to lead us through this war

Well,

Well, occasionally. I keep my expletives myself most of the time, although I don't think the team would say all the time. But I I I think if you're the British Prime Minister, it's really important that um we approach this with our interests in mind and asking the question, how do we come out of this better? Um what are the conditions when we went in? How do we come out of this better?

Um and these are the challenges of our time.

We've just finished this meeting this evening with the European

leaders here by saying, we have to recognize that these are the challenges of our time. We are the leaders of this time and we have to step up and lead when there's a war on two fronts. We have to step up and lead when we need more on defense and security. And we have to step up and lead when we know that for millions of households, the cost of living is the single most important

Well, first let me be clear because it's very important I reassure people. Bills, energy bills for households will go down next week and they will stay down until the end of June. And it's really important I make that clear. That's the decision we took at the budget, opposed by all the other political parties, but you can now see the worth of it. So, because I know people watching this will be worried.

So, until June, bills down. Now, what happens after that will depend on how long the war goes on, what the damage is, which is why de-escalation, getting the straits of Hormuz open, is really important. But, on your point, look, I think we need to try and reduce the cost for everybody. Um, but and we don't want to leave anyone behind. But, any support is likely to have to be targeted.

Now, obviously, the extent of that, the nature of the package will depend on

Lower the cost for everybody. Don't leave anyone behind. But, but, but we will have to tailor the uh support. Exactly how we do that is obviously a number of options we're looking at, but I'll be clear with you. It will be tailored.

Yes.

I do. I think it's really important that we see this for what it is. The relationship with the US is a really important relationship.

It's been close for a long time on defense, security, and intelligence. We're probably one of the two closest countries uh in the world, and that's really important to us. So, um it's in my it's in our interest that we have a good relationship. There's undoubtedly been um you know, some hard decisions over the last few weeks. Um I have been clear I'm not going to join the war.

Um and um there's a clear difference therefore of opinion between me and President Trump. My own view is that a lot of what he said and done has been uh to put pressure on me to change my mind, but I'm not going to do so because I'm the British Prime Minister and I have to act in the British national interest, and I will always act in the British national interest.

Well, I wanted a good relationship. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. I still want a good relationship. Um and um you know, as we work our way through this, I'm sure that is possible, but I want to be equally clear. I'm not going to waiver on this.

I'm not going to back down. I'm absolutely clear about the values and the principles that I'm applying here. Um and anybody who thinks that I'm going to act in anything other than the British British national interest.

I think I understand what's happening. It's to put pressure on me.

In different ways, um but that pressure isn't going to make me waver. It's not going to make me abandon my principles or values. And that's just the way I am. That's isn't new. That isn't because of President Trump.

I've got core values and principles I've held all my life. Um and they're irreducible.

Well, look, I stand up for my principles and my values. Um and

The Well, the values here are to act always in the British national interest. Yeah. It's really clear that involves not getting dragged into the war. And I'm not going to get dragged into the war. Um and that is the long and the short of it because it's not in our interest.

I don't know. I don't know. But it's obvious that um you know, from a number of sides there's pressure being applied. But I'm not going to buckle under pressure. Um and uh that's

That's the long and the short of it.

Well, I the Labour Party had lost badly a number of times and I wanted to turn it around. And um I was therefore concerned that a year afterwards um we lost the Hartlepool by-election. In retrospect, I think I had not appreciated and it is a really important political lesson that when a party loses a general election badly, to think that that's the bottom of the curve is a mistake because we were still going down and we did then turn it around and so there is a lesson there. But look, the we have got May elections coming up. They are very much sort of midterm elections.

They are very important in the councils and the authorities where they're being fought in in Scotland and in Wales of course. But look, if you look at history, all incumbent governments pretty well lose.

No, I intend to be judged at the next election on what I've delivered for the country.

Well, look, let me say about Angela to start with. She was a fantastic Deputy Prime Minister. I was very proud of the fact that Angela had come from a really challenging start in life to be Deputy Prime Minister. She's got a lot to offer and I obviously had a conversation with her on the day that she had to resign and I regret that she had to resign. It was the right thing to do, but I regret that she had to do it.

And I said to her that her contribution to the Labour government and the Labour movement was by no means over. And so I do expect to see her playing a leading role in this Labour government.

Well, I on the back of that due diligence we questions were put to him. Answers were given which in my view weren't truthful. Um but if if I sit back and answer your question, um I am frust- Nobody has been harder on me in relation to the mistake I made there than me. And I'll tell you for why. I've spent years um trying to deal with violence against women and girls.

And as I look back at it now and the mistake I make, I've been really hard on myself. In the immediate days after this all came out, I was particularly hard on myself. So, yeah, I Everybody else was criticizing. I guess all that. But nobody was criticizing my me more than myself.

I'm not trying to um you know, make that a mitigation or an excuse, but um I know I made a mistake.

Um I know that after nearly 20 years um fighting violence against women and girls, I made a mistake there. And I hate the fact I made that mistake.

Um and I dwell on it. Um I beat myself up about it. It's certainly not a mistake I'd ever repeat. Um but there's no criticism anybody else can level at me

that will um uh be as harsh as the criticism I've dished out for myself.

I would say um you have to rise to the challenge. You have to realize it's going to be um a bumpy road. You can't fix everything as quickly as you think. Um but you have to be really clear what is it you're trying to achieve. And in the end, I will be judged at the next election on whether or not people feel better off.

Whether they can pay their bills, but not just that, whether they actually feel their lives are a bit better. They can do what they want to do with their families, that they don't feel held back in the way that they have done for far too many years. I understand why people are frustrated. I'll be judged on whether our public services are better. I'm really pleased the health service confidence levels have gone up.

And I'll be judged by whether people feel more safe and secure. I will also now be judged in the context we're in facing a war on two fronts. On how I took our country through that difficult situation and how we emerged afterwards. And I know I'll be judged on that and I go into it with my principles, with my values, which are my irreducible core. And applying those, I hope that people will see that in the end the reason I want that I'm proud and privileged to sit here as Prime Minister is because I want nothing better than to improve this country and to act in our national interest.

And that in the end gives me that great determination. I'm not going to be pushed around by other people. I'm not going to be persuaded to do things that I don't think are right for our country. And that is core for me. Important for me and will help steer our country through this.

Definitely, thank you.