BBC Newsnight interview with Victoria Derbyshire: the 'Nigel' t-shirt post

Good evening.

Uh no, they haven't.

It feels quite surreal to be having this conversation because I think first of all, it's important to establish the facts. This was not my post. It was a collaboration from a photographer. It had 20 images, and I just didn't look carefully enough, and I accepted it. As soon as I was aware of what happened, I unaccepted it and took it down.

I think it would be odd for the police uh to speak to me about that because I think it's quite obvious that I've not done anything wrong other than making an inadvertent mistake. That being said, if the police do want to talk to me, of course, I'm very happy to cooperate.

No.

Uh it was from a party and I accepted nine collaborations from that party. Now, I accept as a leader of political party, I have a responsibility for what I post. And to give you an example, if I go to a protest, I read every sign in a collaboration before I post it because I don't want to have situations like this. This was actually collaborations from a party on Sunday night. And you don't generally expect a party to have things that are contentious.

So, I did flick through it, but I admit I didn't pay enough attention to the T-shirt. As soon as I saw it, I was horrified. It's important to say I condemn all political violence. I condemn violent imagery. I condemn violent metaphors.

I do my best to avoid them in my day-to-day speech. So, I think the idea that I would click this knowing what I was doing, I think most people just know that isn't true. This was a mistake and I'm sure

It was a fifth image in 20 and so what I was seeing was people partying, flicking through. The man had a colorful hat on like a rainbow hat. I remember seeing that and just carried on flicking through. I didn't even know this was a song lyric from XTC. Didn't read the T-shirt.

That was a mistake. I accept that, but it's an inadvertent mistake. And so, I think the amount that it's been reported, particularly by press that are owned by billionaires who often attack me, uh I talk a lot

Well, no, no.

I come back on that? So, in May, uh I experienced lots of threats, including today, by the way I experienced a death threat but in May a Nazi who was near a reform banner threw a salute at me and was arrested. No one ever spoke about it. No one ever reported it. And it does feel this is a legitimate conversation to be having.

That's why I've come here tonight to have the conversation.

I'm complaining about the disproportionality of I think Zayna Yusuf said if I wasn't arrested by this time tomorrow then it's open season on all MPs. I think that's clearly hyperbole.

So I think there's two things there and two things can be true at the same time. It's totally unacceptable for Nigel Farage to receive a single death threat so I condemn any incitement towards him or any violence towards him no matter how much I disagree with his political views or anyone else. Everyone in the political sphere has a right to express their views. At the same time the idea that's incitement to murder when it wasn't my photograph, it's not my t-shirt. I accepted a collaboration post and unaccepted it the moment I read the t-shirt.

Well, if I'd done it deliberately I'd be apologizing but because this was a mistake I think the important thing is that I point out it's a mistake that I also make sure that I condemn political violence and also crucially I make a commitment to be better on my social media.

No. The reason for that is because Nigel Farage when I posted this or when the person posted it it got less than a thousand likes. Nigel Farage then took it cropped it so it made it look like I posted it, which I think was fundamentally dishonest. It's now had 3.2 million views. So, actually, this is this whole conversation has been seen more because Nigel Farage, the UCEF, and I think Richard Tice posted it.

So, I'm accepting my responsibility in that I shouldn't have accepted that collaboration. I'm accepting that we all need to condemn political violence. But, I also think the reporting to the police, the ramping up of the language to say this is incitement to murder me, feels like that's also putting me in a dangerous spot.

I think we also need to talk about double standards.

What you just said was correct, but I was going to add to it.

Then Nigel Farage uh put out a video that talked about cold, pure rage, and then we saw a riot. Nigel Farage talked about knife crime figures.

Right.

I think if I'd done it deliberately and this had been a misjudgment, I would absolutely apologize.

as well as I do, the moment I do that, Nigel Farage would run all over social media saying uh saying he was correct about incitement to murder, and this would all ramp up again. And I think it's important that I draw a line and don't play his game, and actually say it is important that he's kept safe. It is important we condemn political violence, but I also recognize this is a political attack that it is.

I accept it's a dangerous message that I shared inadvertently and I corrected that immediately.

Well, as I said again, if Nigel Farage wants to apologize for all the times that he's put other people in danger, then I'll be happy to make an apology.

Well, that was a totally different situation where I did make a misjudgment and that's why I apologized for it. It wasn't inadvertent. I read it and then reshared it. I think there's a

Well, I think there's a question

Other politicians don't use social media in the way that I do and that's because again they often have the press to back their arguments. I believe in being in grassroots community. I believe in being in spaces. I actually collaborated with eight people that evening.

I I want to make sure there's a green government whether I'm Prime Minister in the future or not. I want to start making sure

I have a job to do to make sure that I build trust.

And it's my job to make sure that I build trust, that I demonstrate through my actions and through my behavior that I have people's values and that their um best interests at heart. I think lots of people watching this will recognize that people make mistakes and people make inadvertent mistakes. I'm particularly in a position where that mistake means you end up on live TV talking about it and I accept that because I have a you know, a position of responsibility. I also think no matter how much responsibility you have, whether you're leader of a political party or a prime minister, you make mistakes. The point is what do you do about that mistake?

How do you learn and how do you move on from it?

I think they're different mistakes. The first mistake with the the Golders Green attack was that I shared in haste and I should have gone to the Met Commissioner. That's why I apologized. This time, I've inadvertently accepted something and as soon as I realized corrected it. They are different things.

Well, I think Andy Burnham has identified a lot of the problems I was talking about earlier in the year about living in rip-off Britain, the fact that we have this toxic combination of high bills and low wages. I think the problem for Andy Burnham and where I plan to to step up is that his solutions aren't going to fix things. For instance, he's ruled out rent controls. If we brought in rent controls, we could save the average UK household up to £2,400 a year and save government £2 billion a year.

I meet people all the time who actually say, in fact, a journalist interviewed me on Saturday and said she thinks I'm rough around the edges and that's why people are attracted to the work that I'm doing, that I do make mistakes, and that I own when I make a mistake, and actually I'm working really hard, and people can see that I'm doing it honestly, authentically, and that I'm not focus grouping, I'm not kind of run by some kind of corporate company. I'm listening every day to what I can do to make this country better, and working as hard as I can in the face of incredibly hostile press.

I mean, that's a case for the Prime Minister. Actually, I think it's positive he's inviting opposition leaders at all, of course.

I mean, I would like to be there, of course I would, and I'd encourage the Prime Minister to extend that invitation. I think the point here, though, is not politicians' personal egos. The point is adult social care is a ticking time bomb. It makes no sense that if someone is ill with cancer, they get free health care, as they should, but if they have dementia, they don't. And actually, what we really, really need to do is get a grip of this.

I think one of the biggest things we need to do is stop the outsourcing of private profit. In the last 3 years, in three regions of the UK, because of the outsourcing of social care, private providers have made up to 240 million pounds. That money should actually be in the NHS, and making sure we're funding adult social care properly.

Uh no, the council still don't know if I owe council tax or not. Um obviously, I want to pay it as soon as I can if I have to pay anything.

Well, as I said, I believe in authenticity, and I don't think I've done anything wrong here. I've made a mistake, but it wasn't a purposeful mistake. Be very easy to apologize, but actually, I think it'd be false, and if nothing else, I'm always going to stand by my convictions.

Thank you very much for having me.