Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg interview at Reform's conference: tax and benefits, the undercover donations sting, investigations and his family

Well, I think you'll find the £20,000 uh was an aspiration written for a party that wasn't going to win a single seat in Parliament. And I inherited that, and it was a it was a direction of travel rather than a serious manifesto promise. But, but the idea of lifting thresholds, the idea of actually making work pay, is really important. And I've been banging it up for years and years and years. And there's a real division in Britain between those that work and those that don't.

And actually, a growing resentment for those who do get up at 5:30 in the morning, who feel little better off than the next door neighbor that doesn't.

Yeah, look, you know, the point is here that that we've extended the welfare system to people from all over the world. And frankly, with what's coming down the track with the Boris wave, I we we we we we literally can't afford it.

but I'm sorry to say this, but mild anxiety will not qualify as a condition under our government that Robert Jenrick is Chancellor.

Let let's be clear. We're not taking all benefits away. You know, we are taking benefits away from foreign nationals, social housing away from foreign nationals, and benefits away from some Brits who we don't think, frankly, should qualify, and that we can't afford. I I and you know something, you know, if you spend your whole time in politics, in opposition or government, saying things to please this group of voters or that group of voters, you finish up being a follower and not a leader.

I asked a question. I asked a question. I asked a question. Is this all above board?

Is it all above board?

told

I was told it was a global family trust.

Yeah, that's right.

I was told before the meeting that it was a global business. But the was the family office was based in London. A global family office. In my head at that little minute in time, but look, my job wasn't to do compliance. My job wasn't to do background checks.

My job was to turn up at a lunch, have a glass of wine, and shake someone's hand.

Of course I know that.

No, because I was told he was giving it to a UK family trust. Or sorry, a family office that was based in the UK.

I am not a compliance officer. I was in the middle of canvassing in the Clacton by-election. I turn up. I frankly wasn't even listening.

I just asked, "Is it all above board?" I was just there to go come and say hello.

told I was told there was a global family office based in London. So, the money could have come from Singapore. The money could have come from all over the world. You know, income could have come from all over the world into a family office based in London.

I know electoral law. You know, I know donation law better than anybody. Frankly, the two individuals involved here I've never been involved in fundraising before. And they shouldn't have been involved directly in fundraising. And they should have done basic checks.

And nobody nobody should be brought to me unless they've been vetted properly.

I know. I know.

Which which I'm pleased to say isn't true. Because he mentions he mentioned two names and they were redacted out at the Channel 4 news report because it's not true.

in that way. That has never happened.

I'm not a compliance officer. I'm a leader. I shake hands and take photographs. All right?

Well, look, I'll tell you what. I could stop campaigning and work in an office and be a compliance officer. I'm not a compliance officer. But what I do know what I do know is our checks. And by the way, we send donations back all the time.

People send us money. We send money back all the time if it's not compliant. And if any money had come through this route it would have been sent straight back.

their behavior and that's why

It wasn't okay. It wasn't okay.

Their comments were injudicious at best and why it's subject to an investigation. And by the way, you know, this looks bad as does the sale of peerages, as does government contracts for donations. We are not the first people to be involved in a row over donations.

Yeah.

We will be investigated. We will be investigated every week between now and the next election. That is the tactic that is being used against us.

Laura, if I report you to the police I report you to the police with a serious allegation against you, they will investigate. I can then go and tell a newspaper you're under investigation. We live in a complainant society. We live in a complainant society. It's as simple as that.

And I have no doubt I have no doubt this stuff will be unending.

will go on. And it will go on. will never end.

It will never end. It will never end. This has been a deliberate attempt to do this to us. If we get things wrong, right, if we make mistakes, and do things that are wrong, you know, I will hold my hands up and admit that. Uh but frankly, the other things that have been talked about, I don't believe we have any guilt at all.

None whatsoever. Absolutely none.

think the leaking of people's evidence for that Hang on. How did Richard Tice's bank accounts appear in a newspaper? Is that legitimate? Is that fair? Is that reasonable?

It's astonishing. It is astonishing. Uh and that is why there is currently a legal action going on against the National Crime Agency. Look, I know what being targeted is. I was debanked myself a couple of years ago.

You know, I know what happens. There is an ecosystem in this country, an establishment ecosystem in this country that has operated for 100 years very effectively. What they do not want are new kids on the block coming in and changing things.

Well, well, I would

think the others have been debanked. I don't think the others have been kicked out with their pension provider. I don't think the others have literally had an attempt to wipe them out of society. Oh, and their families as well. And their families as well.

There is no doubt there is no doubt there is huge political prejudice against reform right across the corporate world and right across the establishment. And that is a simple fact of life. And why? Because we're the disruptors. And that's the way it works.

Well, no, no, no, I'm not saying that. I'm going to actually all my colleagues around me all my colleagues around me have have have huge questions that Look, I get the point about scrutiny. I get the point that the more you get to power, the more questions people will ask. I get all of those points. Uh on on the late declaration stuff, well, that was cleared up later.

Um but but it was all declared, you know? Unlike here, where it wasn't declared. I mean, you know, you can you can argue these things all around the houses. But that there is an attempt to sully the name of the party by people constantly making complaints about financial matters. Politics is now a big money game.

It's a big money game. And you know, the treasurer of Reform the treasurer of Reform will go to prison if things are got wrong. He will go to prison. It's as simple as that. So, we know what we're dealing with.

You have no idea, you literally you people have no idea what I've lived with for the last decade, what I live with every day. I was stopped from going on stage yesterday by counter-terrorism. They're worried about a bomb threat. You have no idea how I have to live, what I have to live with, what the cost of that is, the fact the state again and again refused to give me any security support. So, I'm not going to apologize to anybody for being given a sum of money that might just save my life.

And it's as simple as that. And and by the way, and by the way, all public figures have security threats. I've had them for over 10 years, and it's endless. And that reflects, I'm afraid, the nastiness of where politics is well.

I did.

you know why? You know why? And I was angry over the summer. I'm not now. I've moved on.

We're having a great conference. I'm enjoying life. I enjoyed the by-election campaign. I've been aggrieved because of the impact and things that have been done to my family, most of which I have not talked about in public, many of which are frankly monstrous, are not scrutiny, and are not in the public domain. And did that upset me hugely over the course of a summer?

I would admit that it did. I would admit that it did. Very, very much. To the point where for the first time, really, in my political career, you know, I haven't got my family's support. They would rather I packed it up and walked away.

So, yeah, it's been difficult.

I haven't. But when when you've got your family begging you to, it's not easy. But I think we're through that now. I believe we're through that bad period. I think the general public do understand that, you know, I have got some unusual circumstances that others don't have to deal with.

Um and yeah, you know, we're back here. It's a big conference. It's an energetic conference. We had a bad start with a few little local difficulties, as we've discussed, but you can see the party's very upbeat.

Laughing it off. You lose people in You lose people in life, in business, in politics. It happens for all sorts of reasons.

Yes.

Yeah.

You're telling me. I've been leading the political parties for 20 years. I know what it's like. And of course, of course you have to carry the can for what everybody else around you does. I know that.

I get that. I understand that. Look, I came back into this I came back into this 2 years ago. You know, when I sit down rationally and think where we've come in 2 years, what we're building this organization into, I'll be honest, I'm very proud of what I've done. I can live with the rough and tumble of politics more than anybody.

No, no, you're wrong. What makes me angry is what happened this year with my family. And I will And I will write about this in the next few weeks, and you'll be shocked. One of the two things that have happened to my close family, and that did make me angry, very, very angry. Very angry indeed.

You know, I have You've known me a long time. I've generally gone about politics in a very upbeat, jolly way. You know? At this conference, I'm having enormous It's doing it. Um, I've got a work rate that very, very few people have.

You know, a high energy work rate. And and I'm looking at I'm I'm looking ahead to the next few months and what I think will be a general election in May of next year and you know, I'm ready for it.