Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg interview: social care, the public finances and masked anti-migrant protests

We are making really good progress now. And for me, obviously, coming in to this journey as Prime Minister, as my dad was ending his, has been hard, but it pushes me on. And I'm going to grasp the nettle on social care. When I was in Parliament first time round, in fact, when I was a a new MP, my gran was going through the care system. And as Health Secretary, I remember saying, "We shouldn't let what happened to my grandparents' generation happen to my parents' generation." And it's devastating, actually, to be here and it has happened.

Parliament just ignoring this issue cuz they consider it too difficult. You know, is there Is there any wonder that politics is in such low esteem with the public when it can't fix something as basic as the care that we give to each other? So, it can't carry on. Somebody needs to uh grasp the nettle. I will be the one to do that.

And I realize it might require me to spend some political capital, that it might make me unpopular with some, but that isn't going to stop me.

So, it's something that I proposed many years ago, a national care service. You have to have a situation where the care system speaks the same language as the health system. Cuz at the moment social care is charged for, provided on a very different basis, and the two just don't connect. And the worst of all worlds is happening in that the care system is so threadbare, it can't support people in their own homes, or it can't support people in care homes, or people can't afford to pay pay the charges, and then we see people arriving in hospital every day in their thousands on 999 calls into A&E, which also is the most expensive part of the system, is not where they should be, is not right for them, their family, certainly not right for the NHS staff. So, the whole system is working in the wrong way.

So, I will set out more this week at the conference, and I will set out a timetable as to how we make this reform happen. But I am talking about a system that works on NHS principles.

That is the only way that you can make it work. There is free personal care elsewhere in the UK.

I don't think it's right that people in England don't get the same. Um and it's [clears throat] not uh something that we're going to rush. We can't rush because of what you said at the start of the interview. The challenge in the public finances is real. Uh so, it has to be done carefully uh without uh putting extra strain on the public purse.

But I will bring forward proposals. Bear in mind Baroness Louise Casey is still doing an official review for us. So, I will set out the vision, if you like, on Tuesday. Louise will then help us with the how. How do we make this happen?

When can we make it happen? But what I'm saying to you this morning, Laura, is I am not uh going to do what others have done and just say, "Oh, I'm looking in a different direction. This is all too difficult." To be honest with you, broken social care will, in the end, break the National Health Service if we leave it like it is because staff in the NHS, God love them, staff in the NHS talk of corridor care being an everyday reality in hospitals across England. And then if I look at the people who cared for my dad, you know, they must just feel invisible to the political class. They work day in, day out with huge uh humor and humanity and skill in what they do, keeping a threadbare system, if you like, trying to hold it together, but caring for other people's parents on poverty pay.

How have we let this go on so long?

It's not that high. It's not not on the figures that I

that high. But, can I directly deal with this issue of the cost cuz it's as if there isn't a cost at the moment. There is a cost. People are paying care charges now. They are spending tens of thousands of pounds from their savings, sometimes losing their homes.

That is what's happening at the moment. So, to suggest there isn't a cost to people at this moment in time, there's a huge cost. Social care in England is as unfair as American healthcare where the most vulnerable in society can lose everything. They can be wiped out, not just by the condition that they have, but wiped out financially. So, there is a massive cost and there is also a cost to the National Health Service, as I said, because there are a huge number of people in hospitals across England every day who are medically fit to be discharged home, but can't be discharged home because the social care isn't there.

will.

and that is something I will begin to say more about later this week, but there is still a review ongoing and I won't do anything that I can't, if you like, look the public in the eye and say, I think this is the right thing to do. I am going to show leadership on this on this issue. I will not leave office without giving my all to fixing to fixing this and I will be honest with people. I'm not going to do any sleight of hand here. We will set out the issues.

I will try to build consensus. I've already started cross-party talks and will come back to cross-party talks. And I won't I won't, if you like, dodge the difficult questions. I'm going to I'm going to rip the plaster off, if if if I can put it that way, because someone has to do it.

It It will be a system of that kind. So, everyone contributes. Everyone's covered, but not precisely necessarily in the same way that we currently pay for the NHS. So, this is for Baroness Casey to advise us on the best

I have been thinking about 60 years, and I'm making a speech on Tuesday, and I will I will say more there. I'm not I'm not avoiding your your question. I will just set it out in the right way because the history of this has been in an interview like this, the opposition party will leap on one comment, and then they will call uh the policy a dementia tax or a death tax. Can I just say, we have dementia taxes right now, and people can lose everything they've worked for paying those taxes. So, the the idea that there isn't already a cost is just wrong.

It's just making that cost fairer and spreading it across across the population.

Uh nothing is off the table at this moment in time. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm going straight back to the proposal that I had in 2010. So, I know people will be saying, "Well, well, tell us what what it is." The facts of the matter are I'm going to lay out a broad direction on Tuesday, and then Baroness Casey is going to help me work up the details that we will put to cross-party talks cuz we do have to build consensus. But I I want to say this, Laura, if we continue to approach this issue with politics as usual, where people are scoring points, and they're taking a a proposal and then trying to frighten the public at home about it, we will never fix it. And can we honestly justify that the politics in this country cannot face an issue like this and and deal with it because we're too scared of it, cuz it's bigger than where politics and politicians are these days.

I I think it's real indictment actually of our politics that we've had so much cowardice in our political system that we've not been able to deal with this.

Very much so.

Well, I'm going to say that we stick to the manifesto cuz I have to keep people's trust as well. And there are commitments in the manifesto that would make it hard to do in this parliament.

though that you're you're driving at? Trust is really important to me here. I don't think you can reform this system without it, without consensus. So, I'm saying to you that I will develop a very clear plan, and I will put that plan to the public at a general election. And that will be the That will be where the plan gets tested, and people will then be able to decide.

And I am prepared to put myself in that position, recognizing that it might be difficult or unpopular with some. But that is the way to do it, to get that endorsement, and then introduce the the system in the next parliament because the the backing of people for this really matters.

And with precise explanation as to how it's going to be funded.

And people will be in no doubt about it at all. And some, you know, in the political world will be saying, watching this, "Oh my goodness, that's a a hostage to fortune. That's a rod for his own back." But do you know what? I am not going to do politics as usual as Prime Minister. Why is the country in the position that it's in?

Because politics has let people down. It has backed away from difficult issues like this. I am not going to do that as Prime Minister.

me just come back to some of the things that you're picking out there, and the things that I'm prioritizing. If you look at social care, it's preventative. So, it Wait. Wait. You've got No, no.

You've got to let me answer this question. It's preventative. You can spend a few pounds supporting people properly in people's homes so that you don't spend thousands of pounds when people are unnecessarily in a hospital, but if you look at rough sleeping, if you support people with accommodation and help them off the street, that costs less than having rough sleepers going in and out of A&E or in and out of police custody. If you support people with bus fares, you support people into jobs and into training. So, the policies are carefully thought through because they are policies that are quite productive in terms of the effect that they have and the way that they then reduce pressure on the wider public purse.

Yeah.

Yeah.

right to say that and in my former job, I oversaw the fastest growing economy in the country, which is Greater Manchester, and you're going to hear from the mayor of the Liverpool City Region soon. He has got Liverpool as a city and as a wider region also growing faster than the whole economy. When in our lifetimes have we been able to say that the city of Liverpool is growing faster than other places?

let's focus on where we are and let's not get into a position where we've just got a narrative of doom about all of this. We are the fastest growing economy in the G7 right now And credit to what Keir Starmer, Rachel Reeves did to get that turnaround going. We're all repairing the damage of the Liz Truss mini-budget. And that has that has impacted That has impacted [clears throat] the gold medal. You know, the fact is

Yes, there is.

Well, if people wait If people wait till Tuesday, they will see that I am prepared to take those type of decisions because I won't I won't do what the previous Conservative government did and take risks with the economy that actually are still hurting us right now. So, I won't do that and I'm very conscious of everything that you've just said in relation to the febrile state of the global economy. If you look at where we were, the fundamentals of the British economy were moving in the right direction until the Middle East until the Middle East conflict. And that has put fuel prices up at the pump. It's had an impact on people's energy costs.

And we will now have to to deal with that and support people as best we can through through the budget. And we will do and we will do those things but in a way that is highly prudent with the running of the UK economy. And the Chancellor of the Exchequer is very, very clear about that.

Well, there's been a consultation on it and it's a it's a

It's a contested issue, isn't it? In London itself. I think principally it's a matter for London and London's

the voice of of people there first. It's not right for me to just jump straight in on the back of the consultation. The consultation has to be

we hear what people have said through the consultation and then then consider the way forward from there.

consultation but there are different views and you have to take those views seriously in coming to a decision.

I would like to see that happen.

I if I can do that, I would do that. The problem The reason why I hesitate and the reason why people say, "Well, what what's he actually saying here?" I don't think you get the welfare bill down on a sustainable basis if it's crude cuts cuz that just plunges people into crisis and then they will appear in a different part of the system and you have to spend more public money. And that's the way we've run things in this country if I could make this point.

on a grand scale. So many people in their 20s stuck on benefits. I don't want to see people in their 20s stuck on benefits but

because we didn't support them when they needed help because we didn't support them when they needed help with an education system that was as much about technical qualifications as the university route. I think we've let young people down there. We didn't support them with the mental health support that they need. We've got the Milburn report coming soon and this is another area where I will take the decisions necessary to give young people the support that they need when they need it so that we can reduce the number of people in work. And the thing is I'm going to come back to my record.

As mayor of Greater Manchester, I oversaw a change to the benefit system that got more people into work. So, I know how to do this cuz I've already done it in the real world.

Mhm.

Unacceptable.

Unacceptable. Creating fear and intimidation on British streets. This is not something we've seen in this country before, uh, and it's not something we want to see. There are real worries about immigration in in all parts of the country, to be honest. I heard it at my own by-election in Makerfield on the doorstep.

And I told people then on those doorsteps that I would take this issue seriously. But let's look The thing about this let's look at the facts. So, net migration is down 80% on what it was in the Boris Johnson era. Boat crossings are down 50% this year on what they were in the early 2020.

And I will be relentless in addressing their concerns, but people also have to look at the facts. And they also have to see when people are playing the worst kind of politics with this issue that is leading to people feeling afraid in their own communities.

Well, it's it's hard to conclude that he's anything other than someone

know, I hesitate always before I you know, I've not read everything that he said. I've not followed everything that he's that he's done. So, I'm just going to say that because I don't just throw labels on people. But given everything and the way he's behaving and what he's seeking to whip up. I mean, this is the worst kind of um hateful behavior.

So, I've said, you know, all the way through, those concerns are understandable and they have to be addressed in whatever solution is is finally agreed. There were also concerns expressed about the use of hotels and the reason why the nature of accommodation is changing across the country is because a commitment was given to end the use of hotels. And that was what many people were calling for a few years ago. And it's linked to that change that obviously we're seeing the need to use other types of accommodation.

Well, I'm not going to to overclaim here, but there is some evidence now that there isn't just failure, that things are going in the right direction. As I say, the main thing is to get boat crossings down, and you know, we've seen uh different types of vessels and different types of arrivals in recent times. That's a sign that the tactics are actually working, and the gangs are having to change what they are doing.

down and it's down on last year, and it's a lot down on what it was in the early 2020s. Don't read this as complacency, though, Laura. I will be relentless in addressing this issue. Working with the Home Secretary, I'm looking at every single way that we can do more to get the numbers down, and the Home Secretary, in my view, has done a really good job. She's got a strong grip on this issue.

What we have been doing is working, but more is needed, and more will be done.

Well, I've spoken to the Northern Ireland Secretary this morning, and I don't think it's um correct to say what you've just said. The decision would have to be made on the recommendation of the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and that recommendation has not has not been made. And obviously, there has been a decision from the Parades Commission, the Independent Parades Commission, upheld in the courts. The job that I have, that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has, is upholding the Good Friday Agreement, and I take that responsibility really seriously. It's 30 years old next year.

It's also the responsibility of the Taoiseach in the Republic of Ireland, and I spoke to him yesterday because we work very closely together on all of these matters. Now, I know it's a a tense situation, as you as you say. We do appeal for calm on all sides. There have been big gains made in in Northern Ireland, and we don't want to see things go backwards. So, obviously a challenging situation today, but you know, it's very important that we we work to bring calm.

Well, yes, it's it's obviously hard, but I do I do I love it for the fact that you can do something to help people. And the thing I would just want people to know about me, I don't want the job because I want the job and whatever the the status or anything like that. I want the job because of what I can do with the job. And people won't be in any doubt about what I'm trying to do. They will be really clear about it.

It's up to them then whether they agree with what I'm trying to do. But they'll see on on Tuesday. I am here to do something. I am here to end the decade of drift and division that we've had since Brexit cuz it's not been a great decade for Britain. I want to set out a really clear direction based on honesty.

You knew I was right to press me earlier on, and I'll say more about those things about social care at the at the conference. But from that can come hope. If we're really clear about where Britain is going in this next decade, laid out clearly, I think that's where we get hope again because people can say, "Okay, I understand what he's doing, why he said that, and I can see that as a path that could take Britain to a better place." And that's what this week is all about.